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10184 Town Plan, not a city set.

SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022

Hi at the moment brickset has 10184 Town Plan as a city set but I don't think it should be. I can see why some would but it does not have city on the box or any similarities with city boxes. It is also a different era from the present day city sets. So the question is what category should it come under?

Comments

  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,031
    How about a UCS City set given its size and exclusivity?  Not all UCS sets are marked after all.   ;)
    BumblepantsSumoLegoSprinkleOtter
  • madforLEGOmadforLEGO USMember Posts: 7,930
    I think it is a 'Creator' set and should reflect as much (especially if the mods are not under 'City' theme)
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    edited September 2016
    This is going to get fun.

    It was in the same sort of box as the modulars, and appeared in the same sections of the web site as they did (at least, it did in January 2009) - Exclusives and Town Essentials (a sub-category of City), but not Creator. That's presumably why Brickset lists it that way.

    Things like the Taj Mahal and the Volkswagen Beetle were under Exclusives and Creator, but they were the only large sets in Creator.
  • BumblepantsBumblepants Sofia BG/Dallas TXMember Posts: 3,875
    Star Wars is probably playing in the cinema so I say tag it as that.
    LegoboySumoLego
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,036
    TigerMoth said:
    This is going to get fun.

    It was in the same sort of box as the modulars, and appeared in the same sections of the web site as they did (at least, it did in January 2009) - Exclusives and Town Essentials (a sub-category of City), but not Creator. That's presumably why Brickset lists it that way.

    Things like the Taj Mahal and the Volkswagen Beetle were under Exclusives and Creator, but they were the only large sets in Creator.
    None of the early modulars were labelled as creator sets either. I think that started with TH or PC. Neither was Taj. Most of those big D2C sets from 2007 - 2012 did not have any theme branding on them. So it makes as much sense to tag them as creator as it would to tag town plan that way
    Si_UKNZ
  • SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022
    edited September 2016

    I think it makes a lot more sense to have Town Plan with the Taj Mahal and Beetle because of the box type and the fact its more of a one off set. A little oddly these sets are not under creator but advanced models, maybe advanced models should be changed to creator expert.

  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    dougts said:

    None of the early modulars were labelled as creator sets either. I think that started with TH or PC. Neither was Taj. Most of those big D2C sets from 2007 - 2012 did not have any theme branding on them. So it makes as much sense to tag them as creator as it would to tag town plan that way
    That's what I said. The point is that Town Plan and the modulars were tagged as being City on the web site - at a the same time that Taj Mahal and the Volkswawgen Beetle were tagged as being Creator, although not marked as such. In other words, the category existed but wasn't used for even the modulars at that time.

    Town Hall was, at least originally, not labelled with a theme.

    By 2010, the modulars were tagged as being both City / Town Essentials and Creator on the web site. I don't think Town Plan got that far.
    SMC said:

    I think it makes a lot more sense to have Town Plan with the Taj Mahal and Beetle because of the box type and the fact its more of a one off set.

    What do you mean by "box type"? If you mean the design with the background of blue studs, then the modulars were like that too when they classified as Town Essentials, but not Creator.

    If you want to classify sets, don't look to TLG because they change their minds! If you're not using their classification, then you can do whatever you want. You can spend forever with old catalogues and the Wayback Machine and not be any the wiser about what to do.
  • SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022

    ^ Yeah by box type I meant the box art and I am looking at how brickset classify sets. At the moment 10184 Town Plan is the only set in the city theme (on brickset) that does not have city on the box. I think it would be better in advanced models. I also think advanced models should have a name change to creator expert because as you have said in the past the boxes have had no theme on the box but these same type of sets now are labelled as creator expert.

  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    One issue with Brickset is that it only has more recent sets - so they don't have to fit in with the longer-term situation. If you look at Peeron, for example, they classify it as Town, not City, which also makes sense considering  what it is.

    If it's confusing now, it'll be even more confusing in ten years when TLG have changed their minds again. They're likely to wreck any system you invent even if it works now.
    SumoLegokiki180703Legogram
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 7,535
    ^ Can we all agree it's not a 'Factory' set?
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 7,535
    (Part of me still wishes they would refer to the HH as one of the 'modular' buildings.)
    Si_UKNZ
  • TheBigLegoskiTheBigLegoski AmsterdamMember Posts: 1,093
    edited September 2016
    Could it be that many of you are rather (too) preoccupied with box-art, and how websites as well as the whimsicality of TLG with regard to classification systems seem to be.
    Who buys this set, why, and what for?
    I think people buy this because they are into the city theme: trains, modulars, public transportation sets, fire stations, police-stations, harbour sets, forest police, volcano & (ant-)arctic explorers, are all full blown city sets, as I see them.
    This set has a nice art-deco architecture style cinema, a service station, and a town hall. Too me that has CITY written all over it, even if TLG did not stick that label onto the box.
    Then again maybe I am still kind of looking at a lot of Lego stuff the way I did back as a kid. It is either medieval, city/town, space, full blown scifi, pirates, or any of the licensed themes, which in some cases are just regular themed sets, but with fleshy coloured minifigs (e.g.: POTC) modelled after a movie franchise.
    The modular firestation, well at least the car that is included in the set, as well as those firefighter helmets, also looks very antiquated. Sort of pre WW2 or mid 20th century. To me it is just one of the modulars, and a city set.
  • TheBigLegoskiTheBigLegoski AmsterdamMember Posts: 1,093
    SumoLego said:
    (Part of me still wishes they would refer to the HH as one of the 'modular' buildings.)
    Isn't a 'modular set' a a modular because you can connect them wall to wall to another modular set, and on top of that has a stacked floor system, as opposed to the hinged doll house type of access to the interior of the building as is the case with Haunted House??!?!
    Oldfankiki180703
  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    Could it be that many of you are rather (too) preoccupied with box-art, and how websites as well as the whimsicality of TLG with regard to classification systems seem to be.
    I think @SMC is simply trying to find something definitive - without which, you end up with arguments like whether Market Street is a modular. Unfortunately, as with many things like this, there isn't anything definitive - which often leads to people insisting that their opinion is fact, and that because of that, their opinion is worth more than someone else's.
  • LegoboyLegoboy 100km furtherMember Posts: 8,031
  • SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022

    Yeah basically I am trying to work out if 10184 Town Plan is listed correctly in the brickset database, if not I will get it changed.

    I actually think its easier to categories sets now than in the past as everything is branded. Look at 10214 Tower Bridge it used to have very little on the box but the newer box shows it is a creator expert set.

  • TigerMothTigerMoth Member Posts: 2,343
    "Correctly" is one thing, but it has been sold, at least for a while, by clicking on "City" as a theme. I suspect that's the origin of its classification here.
  • TheBigLegoskiTheBigLegoski AmsterdamMember Posts: 1,093
    TigerMoth said:
    you end up with arguments like whether Market Street is a modular.
    But Market street is modular.  ;P  Regardless or not if you have other 'modular' Lego sets, to connect it with, via the technic connector pins. The Market Street building is modular simply because it is comprised of four stackable modules, and one horizontal attachable section or module if you like. As opposed to Haunted House or the Yellow Castle, or many other sets. I suppose by this definition e.g. #7946 King's Castle is also a modular building, since that set is also contains eight modular sections which you can connect with each other in a variety of ways. However the last set will simply be labelled a castle set, because that is the category it belongs to and fits in with that makes sense to almost anyone.
    I do not own Market street, so I do not know how advanced the building techniques of that set are, so whether or not the label 'creator' or 'expert' can or should be applied, I cannot tell. What I, and most other people who know just a little bit about Lego sets, do know is; that it falls into that category of big city type buildings, with a certain amount and quality of detail, and stackable modular floors, which may or may not be fitted with a fully furnished minifigure scale interior.
  • TheBigLegoskiTheBigLegoski AmsterdamMember Posts: 1,093
    Therefore I think that @SMC ; original question is a 'yes'. Not all towns are cities, but all cities ones were towns, even the ones build from Lego bricks. So Town Plan definitely is part of the 'city' theme.
    madforLEGOkiki180703
  • AanchirAanchir United StatesMember Posts: 2,169
    I would definitely be OK if both #10184 Town Plan and #10210 Imperial Flagship were both moved to Advanced Models. Labeling D2C sets with actual theme names is not by any means a recent phenomenon: #10176 was clearly branded as Knights' Kingdom, #10193 as Castle, #10217 as Harry Potter, #10228 as Monster Fighters, and all the Star Wars D2C sets as Star Wars. So I think instances in which D2C sets did not carry other theme branding should be recognized as deliberate, rather than as some sort of fluke.
    LyichirSMCkiki180703Dontcopythatfloppy
  • HuwHuw Brickset Towers, Hampshire, UKAdministrator Posts: 5,723
    ^ I'm inclined to agree with you so I've moved them.
    SMCkiki180703SumoLegoDontcopythatfloppy
  • TheBigLegoskiTheBigLegoski AmsterdamMember Posts: 1,093
    ^  Mmmmh, my Imperial Flag ship is now listed between my Winter Village Toyshop, and my Winter Village Bakery?!

    Too me it made more sense having it listed as a 'Pirate' theme set, and being listed with my other 'Pirate' theme sets, which are immediately followed by all my 'Pirates of the Caribbean' sets. That way all sets (and ships from the same 'historic' time period and 'place'; granted the seven seas are all over the place) are bundled. You can argue that it is not a pirate ship, because it is the ship of the adversaries of the pirates, namely 'the Imperials', but so is e.g.  #6462  (the set called: soldier's fort) which is also labelled a pirate set. And like the Imperial Flag ship, it only contains one pirate: Captain Brickbeard, who in both sets is the outlaw. The crafty mischievous hero/criminal or escaping prisoner of the Imperials. Actually the IFS contains a second minifig, which is labelled a 'pirate', which I always just thought of as the ships cook.

    Too me whether or not a set is labelled an 'advanced model' is secondary to the 'theme/historical time period' of a particular set. And I suppose whether or not TLG sold that particular set only as D2C (direct to customer) from their Legoshop@home website or via telephone is even tertiary.

    Of course this is just my personal preference, and I do not know how many other people hold a similar view? Whether the set being tagged as an 'advanced model' bears more weight than the theme it is part of, I think is debatable. Plus it merits another question: what constitutes an 'advanced' model? This is also debatable. The building techniques of the IFS are not much more advanced than that of e.g. the POTC Queen Anne's Revenge. The hull of the IFS contrary to the QAR of course is enclosed, instead of being an open deck, and counts more parts, as is the admiral's cabin, though I would not claim it is really more difficult to build. Or for that matter whether it is as advanced a the build as e.g. numerous Star Wars ships/ vehicles such as the AT-AT, or many other sets, which do not bear that tag, but do encompass quite a few 'technic' parts, SNOT techniques, technic mechanisms etc. Granted, I remember, when I build the compact Winter Village Toy Shop, I was pleasantly surprised at the design, attention to detail, and the integrated building techniques of just a 'little house'. The IFS was fun to build, but mostly a very long build, because the bags of the set are not numbered, and it contains a lot of parts, which just like the Medieval Market Village need to be sorted first before you can commence building the set, without having to look for ages all the time for the parts needed along the way. But that in it self does not make it an advanced build. I think the reason why TLG has put a higher age (14+) on the packaging of the IFS is, that first and foremost many younger children may grow weary of a set with so many parts, and no numbered bags.

    This is why I Personally preferred the way it was before; with the IFS set happily anchored, docked and towering over all the other pirate theme sets here on Brickset.
  • SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022
    edited September 2016
    ^ I agree with you that it fits better with the 'Pirate' theme but I think this is a Lego mistake rather then a brickset one. 10193 Medieval Market Village and 10223 Kingdoms Joust which were made just before and after this set are clearly labelled castle and kingdoms so why didnt they do the same with 10210 Imperial Flagship. So thanks @Huw, I think although not perfect this works better.
    Aanchir
  • HuwHuw Brickset Towers, Hampshire, UKAdministrator Posts: 5,723
    Seems I can't please everyone :)
    dougtsSumoLegodavetheoxygenmanBumblepantsgmonkey76Dontcopythatfloppy
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 7,535
    ^ You can please everyone all of the time.  I suppose the only thing you have to avoid is not pleasing anyone none of the time.

    Or something like that.

    I think it should appear alongside the D2C Creator sets, and not as an also-rand Pirates set.
  • SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022

    So can we take it further and changed the theme to Creator Expert?

    Are all Advanced Models Creator Expert sets?

    Since 2013 all the sets in this theme have been labelled Creator Expert these include the subthemes:

    Modular Buildings

    Landmark Buildings

    Fairground

    Winter Village

    Vehicles

    Trains

    Maersk Line

    We can also see from the new Tower Bridge box that older sets can also be part of this Creator Expert line and that Lego just didn't have a name for it before 2013 but the line has existed for some time. In fact there have only been 4 changes to the box art and all can be link together through sets.

    Clouds 2000-2002 (linked through 2 Sopwith Camel sets)

    Plain Blue 2003-2004 (linked through Maersk sets)

    Studs 2006-2012 (many links including Tower Bridge with two different boxes)

    Creator Expert 2013 ongoing

    So isn't it time brickset gave Creator Expert its own theme rather than just a tag?

    dougtsAanchirSumoLegoSi_UKNZ
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,036
  • AanchirAanchir United StatesMember Posts: 2,169
    SMC said:

    So can we take it further and changed the theme to Creator Expert?

    Are all Advanced Models Creator Expert sets?

    Since 2013 all the sets in this theme have been labelled Creator Expert these include the subthemes:

    Modular Buildings

    Landmark Buildings

    Fairground

    Winter Village

    Vehicles

    Trains

    Maersk Line

    We can also see from the new Tower Bridge box that older sets can also be part of this Creator Expert line and that Lego just didn't have a name for it before 2013 but the line has existed for some time. In fact there have only been 4 changes to the box art and all can be link together through sets.

    Clouds 2000-2002 (linked through 2 Sopwith Camel sets)

    Plain Blue 2003-2004 (linked through Maersk sets)

    Studs 2006-2012 (many links including Tower Bridge with two different boxes)

    Creator Expert 2013 ongoing

    So isn't it time brickset gave Creator Expert its own theme rather than just a tag?

    Not a bad idea. Honestly, it wouldn't be unlike how the Creator theme on Brickset includes not just sets sold as Creator, but also the early naughts "designer sets", "inventor sets", and "X-Pods" which were not originally branded as Creator, but basically gave rise to it.
    SMCSumoLego
  • SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022

    ^ Good point

    10173 Holiday Train has now been added to Advanced Models for the same reasons as the other sets.

    But should its subtheme be Trains or Winter Village?

    Are there any other sets that should be in Advanced Models/Creator Expert ?

    SumoLego
  • dougtsdougts Oregon, USAMember Posts: 4,036
    ^ subtheme winter village in my opinion
    SMCSumoLego
  • SMCSMC UKMember Posts: 1,022

    ^ Some people who until now had a complete Winter Village collection won't be happy :)

    But its the same as 10187 Volkswagen Beetle being in the Vehicles subtheme and 10196 Grand Carousel being in the Fairground subtheme, you could say there is an odd one out in all 3.

    dougtsSumoLego
  • SumoLegoSumoLego New YorkMember Posts: 7,535
    edited September 2016
    ^ Or the original Ferris Wheel.

    Frankly, I wouldn't include the original holiday train in the WV collection, or the Carousel in the Fairground collection.  

    There is a palatable difference between those earlier offerings and the more recent connected sets.  

    But if we are talking about tags - if it's a train, it should have the train tag.  No matter the theme or quality of the build.  Brickset is a database - I'd rather have more relevant information than less when I do a search.
    Bumblepantsgmonkey76sklambAanchir
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